The night before I had a nightmare about my parents. It's quite common, and it usually involves a rough scenario of what happened surrounding the time I left. I try not to judge my parents, but I still have to deal with what happened. Hopefully these will go away in time. If my parents are reading, I can only hope that they understand the trauma that was inflicted on me by this situation and their actions towards me. I also want them to know how happy I am with my choices, and that I'm grateful that they helped push me out of the house by being so radical. I just wish I'd done it sooner! It could have been a lot less traumatic all around.
But anyway, that stuff is all so dark to think about. It's better to think about now, and freedom, and the joy that life brings when you are free to be. Aftasie being a vibrant, happy, free, and pleasant little person makes me so happy.
What is so striking between myself and Aftasie is that at this age I would have had been spanked -- a LOT. My dad believed (believes? I haven't talked with him about it lately) that if you haven't "conquered a child's will by two years of age, they're lost forever to rebellion." This was done by spanking until the child obeys perfectly, even if it's a trivial thing and not dangerous to self or person, or anything like that. Aftasie has been spanked zero times and I am so relieved that I am free to parent the way I see fit. She is not a little demon. She is not bad. She is not even difficult to deal with, really. She reacts like a person because she is a person! We interact the way people do.
The whole spanking thing, while I'm on this topic, really is so absurd if you just think about your dealings with another adult. Would you spank your neighbor because she won't do what you want? Your spouse? Would you "train" your spouse into eating his vegetables by spanking him until he eats them? Hahaha. How absurd!? Besides, breaking a person's will is simply unconscionable.
Besides, where did spanking get me in my parents' scheme for me? Maybe they would say they just didn't spank me enough...
This is a really smart post.
ReplyDeleteMy own very religious [not as hardcore as yours] upbringing involved a lot of spanking of children. I still remember some of it, and I remember in particular seeing my younger brother being spanked. I'm certain that what our parents did would not have qualified as physical abuse, but it has had lasting effects. For me, in particular, weird emotional convolutions around experiences of shame that I simply cannot get past and that come back all the time to haunt me.
Congratulations on not spanking your daughter. And best wishes for processing your own stuff. It must be hard not to be able to share the joy of her with them.
[your semi-regular long-time reader and anonymous commentator]
I completely disagree. The example given, comparing spanking one's neighbor or spouse with spanking one's child is ludicrous. You wouldn't nurse your neighbor or change your spouse's diaper either. There are some unique responsibilities given parents regarding their children. I was spanked, as were my 7 siblings. We are still best of friends (20 yrs later) with each other and our parents. We have the most wonderful memories of our childhood. I think the author had a poor childhood, not because of spankings, but in spite of them. Parents who spank for selfish reasons and not for the good of the child will reap what they sow. Sad indeed.
DeleteI think every person has the right to interpret her experiences for herself and make decisions on that basis! Surely that's what we all do as humans? As the author writes, "I am so relieved that I am free to parent as I see fit."
DeleteBecause I support that right for you, too, anonymous, I'm glad the experience of having been spanked wasn't damaging to you. The author doesn't refer to her own experiences of being spanked, but to her daughter's. And as her dream demonstrates, she's still attached to her family even in separation.
As far as the "we were spanked and we turned out fine" argument goes, if you wish to separate how an adult parents from what s/he does as a parent, logically, what you write of the poster's childhood could equally well be applied to you. You had a good childhood, not because of spankings, but in spite of them. Although I'm not sure why anyone argue that the fact that a parent spanked made him/her a good parent, I'm glad that you had a good childhood, even so. In general, I would say my parents were / are good parents. But the fact that they spanked did not demonstrate that.
Perhaps parents can control their own action of spanking -- under what circumstances they do it, with what level of intensity, even how they feel while doing it. But what they cannot control is how it will affect their children, how a child will react / respond. Every child is unique and will have a different reaction. Still, I personally wonder why anyone would take the risk.
[the semi-regular reader and anonymous commentator.]
As a nursing assistant, I change and feed adults every day. Someone's requiring care has nothing to do with using violent force on a person. Now, how can comparing human beings and children be "ludicrous"? I fear you are showing the hard swagger of an abused person, that your parents' treatment _has_ had its effect on you.
DeleteYou are purposely twisting my words. I was calling the illustration (since a parent wouldn't do so and so to a neighbor, therefore they shouldn't do it to their child) ludicrous. And I think you know that very well.
DeleteBonnie, what about the verse in Proverbs 22:15?
DeleteFolly is bound up in the heart of a child,
but the rod of discipline will drive it far away.
I was just wondering if you still consider yourself a believer in Jesus Christ. My children found you when looking up youtubes on how to yodel. I was impressed with your demeanor, humor, and earthy beauty---I even told my oldest (before I knew you were married) that I'd found him a wife. :) But, I can see from some of your posts that you have left your parents and their beliefs. So, I am trying to figure out exactly what you believe now. If you have the time... Thanks, Christina
ReplyDeleteShe married me instead, Christina. So sorry!
DeleteVery fortunate fellow I'd say. And, I'm the one whose words you twisted above. :-)
DeleteSo you were posing, above, as the child happy to be spanked but you are (per directly above) the mother?
DeleteNo, I was not posing. I was responding to the anonymous commenter directly and not to Bonnie. I disagreed with the poster that this was a really smart post. However, I would like to dialogue with Bonnie, and didn't really intend to discuss the spanking issue with her at this point. If I was truly posing, why would I have told you who I was? To explain--I was a child 20+ years ago and now have a couple of grown children of my own.
DeleteBut, since you brought it up and accused me, I guess I'll go ahead and post my more detailed thoughts on the issue of spanking.
I have nothing but the utmost DISRESPECT for the MacDonalds. They apparently lost their daughter's heart and respect at some point. But, instead of looking at themselves and saying, "What have we done wrong and how can we fix it?", they have disowned her and act like she no longer exists.--I know this from looking up their family's website. They look and sound extremely religious and I think therein lies the problem. They must be very proud people to still parade about the country singing Godly music, while their own family is in shambles.
My point in the above post was that it is not spanking that is the problem. There are a lot of adults who are exceptionally happy that they were spanked as children--I being one of them. The reason for this is two-fold. One, I learned about God's loving discipline and to trust Him, and two, growing up, I was around many children who weren't spanked. To put it bluntly, they were bullies and brats. However, I also grew up with children who were beaten (not spanked) by their whore mothers and drunk dads, and they were also bullies and brats. Spanking has to be done correctly to lead the child well.
I was blessed to have the most loving mom and dad in the world. They would take in homeless and down-and-outs and show them love. They would love on my unloved friends. They taught us by example how to serve others. They made a lot of mistakes as parents, but they loved us and taught us to love truth. They told us many times that they may tell us something wrong accidentally and to always seek God and His Word. They didn't put on religious shows or do things because it was the latest fad in the "christian world". I'm sure I was spanked many times, but I can only remember maybe 5 spankings. That's because spanking wasn't harped on or drug out. We knew that spanking was merely my parents setting appropriate boundaries and that apparently it was working, because we were bragged on wherever we went.
Let me give you one short illustration from my own children. When my 4th child was born, my 3rd nearly bit her little finger off one day. I put my baby down and gave the biter a sound spanking. I didn't start beating and screaming, although it was a very traumatic situation for me. I knew that my little biter was a child and merely needed training to teach him that he could not treat others in this manner. Today, 10 years later, he is a wonderful boy and a joy to my heart. In fact, all of my children are my best friends. Back to the story though-- would it have been loving of me as a parent to my infant to merely say, 'no don't do that' for a hundred times whilst he continued to bite, knowing there would be no real repercussions for his actions. I loved my biter to pieces, but I also loved my infant. When I swat my youngster for moving toward the street, I am teaching them that if they get close to the street, pain will ensue. It's better than being run over because they have no respect for my commands. A rule is merely a suggestion if there is no force behind it. more to come....
Sorry, I'd written too much for one response.
DeleteParents ARE given unique responsibilities in raising their children. It is not my job to train my neighbor or spouse for life and all it entails, but it is my job to raise responsible, kind, happy children into adulthood.
All this being said, I will admit that if I didn't believe God's Word or have the solid foundation in the wonderful family I grew up in, I would probably see things in much the same way Bonnie does. I am libertarian (almost anarchist) in my political leanings, and I would probably see spanking as the 'lazy, good for nothing parents' way of doing it. I can see that Bonnie loves her daughter and life and laughter. She seems like she loves being Aftasie's best friend--and that is just how all parents should feel toward their children. Jesus came to bring us LIFE and not bondage. Laughter even in tears, and joy even amidst the sorrows of life. I used to visit supposed Christian families and there was so much tension it was like quicksand. I in my naivete couldn't understand what was wrong. I thought all families were as happy as mine.
I guess I'm just saying all this to encourage Bonnie to rethink her position, and put the blame where it lies--on her parents' hypocritical hearts and lives, and not on spankings. There do exist truly happy, God-centered, homeschooling families who spank their children. They may be rare, but they are out there.
If you'd like to read some musings on our family from one of my sisters , you can find it here...
http://forums.adamvstheman.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14193
Her screen name is Liberatedsnowgirl.
May God richly Bless you and your family!--Christina
You're a little obsessive, aren't you? Bonnie's fine; her heavenly Father is pleased with her. Our daughter is not without guidance. You have your own life to live and give account for. Let's just leave it at that.
DeleteYou obviously have a great husband. I'm impressed by your and his maturity. I hope this odd incident won't stop you from posting. Your story cheers me immensely -- there is life "after" a huge caesura. Best wishes.
ReplyDelete[semi-regular, long-time etc., from above]
And I do have a wonderful husband, Original Anonymous! I am so fortunate and happy. I'm always happy to read your comments. I guess the only problem with having anonymous as a name is the possible confusion! But I can definitely tell who is anonymous-who on this thread! :)
ReplyDeleteWell, PSA (pro-spanking-anonymous), I disagree entirely that spanking is what makes children "well-behaved" or anything positive. I believed that lie until I started discussing it with parents of very nice, kind, polite, caring children who were never spanked. Never! I agree with the other anonymous that it's in spite of spanking that children grow up to be well-balanced. To be fair, I could see spanking (possibly) for physical incidents. Biting repeatedly might fall under that, but it would also depend the age of the child. Would I have considered spanking Aftasie for biting me at the breast? No way. But this is nowhere near the spanking my parents did.
And also, to get this straight, PSA, you are suggesting that you should get spanked for speeding, because that's the only thing that will stop you from speeding? That is a very unusual suggestion.
Oh, to the other anonymous (anonymous3?) if it comes to quoting scripture (whoever posted that) let's not forget Ezekiel 23:20, which is sure to be an eyebrow raiser if you have your children memorize it and put it on a bumper sticker. All scripture is equal, right?? I highly doubt I (or anyone else) could get you to post that around your house as people do the so-called Ten Commandments :)
It certainly is interesting to see other people's points of views.
Also, it's so unusual to be told "Spell out your beliefs for me." I mean, what does that mean, exactly? I don't understand the question, anymore (I thought I did at one point, but it was really just code). What do you want to discuss, exactly? I like green. I'm pretty sure it's going to rain tomorrow. I believe my cheesecake in the oven is just aout done and I"m about to go check it! I also believe it will be very tasty :D
ReplyDelete(The comments are loading so strangely for me. I'm not sure if it's just on my browser, but if there are any problems let me know please!)
I think there's a much deeper question here than whether flogging a man or a toddler is harmless or efficacious or fair. That question is how some of us as adults do not know that a child is the same as ourselves. An infant is the same person she will be when she grows up, only temporarily disabled by a contracted body and unfamiliarity with the world. In fact, as a baby she is not only already the mind she will always be -- but that mind is the smartest it will ever be, posing and solving vast problems of dimension and relation and causation -- that mind is also as pure of heart as it can ever be.
ReplyDeleteA child ought to be our teacher more than we his, if we have any hope of "raising him right" -- and if we want to have a special access to God and nature and ourselves! Remember Jesus's saying that nobody can gain access to God (enter his kingdom) who cannot change (convert) into a little child? (But what adult have you ever known to manage _that_?) Make yourself your child's companion and servant.
Such mystery aside, there are practical consequences of understanding an offspring is a person just like me. How could what I want to say be necessarily more important than what she wants to? Why should what I want to do be the plan more than what she wants to? And, finally, why should my will cause her frustration rather than the other way round? There may be answers to these questions that are not rhetorical, but they will be different from case to case and require real thought -- the same as answers to differences between coworkers or spouses or members of a church. (I hope that resorting to blows is in all these cases unthinkable -- but now I veer back to the earlier topic.)
Just wanted to add my support, from another long-time reader (I think I discovered your old blogspot via a long hair website??) I come from a very different background (secular Jewish from NYC) and I have always found your perspective smart and interesting. I have two little ones as well. Sounds like you are doing a wonderful job as a mother, and I can't imagine going to nursing school simultaneously, so big props to you.
ReplyDelete